The Trinity Delusion

Religions & Spirituality
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Excerpt below from:

9. The Trinity Delusion

While counting to 3 has proven difficult for most Christians (“Good Friday” to “Ishtar/Easter Sunday” is obviously NOT 3 days and 3 nights), dividing by 3 seems to come easy, especially when it affords yet another opportunity to mix in some more pagan beliefs, like Ishtar/Easter, into their mystical organized religion.

Just as Ishtar/Easter makes a mockery of Christ’s sacrifice and suffering on the cross, the trinity makes a mockery of The King Ruler of the Universe, Whose Name in Hebrew is YHWH, or in English, the “I AM”; the Self-Existing ONE.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The “I AM” our God [is] one “I AM”:

Neither the word “trinity” nor the words “triune god” appear ANYWHERE in the Old and New Covenants/Testaments and yet “trinitarians” would have us believe that this is the most all-important core concept in understanding God. Reportedly, over two billion “Christians” believe that their 3-in-1 god is neatly divided (please see Matt. 12:25) into 3 separate but equal parts: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And all of this is based on the false premise that Jesus was God and that the Holy Spirit is a third, separate character in this trio. The Holy Spirit is actually our hotline to the Almighty.

Jesus was the human son, born of the virgin Mary. Jesus (the human) was incarnated by God’s Eldest/Firstborn Son, Christ (the Spirit-Being) making the human+Being we know as Jesus+Christ. The name Jesus is actually a means “Saviour” and Christ is likewise a title which means “The Anointed One”. God is a Spirit-Being (John 4:24) and so are ALL of His Children, including His Firstborn Son (Dan. 10:21, Dan. 12:1, Col. 1:14-15).

Numbers 23:19 God [is] not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do [it]? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?

Jesus referred to Himself as the “Son of Man” no less than 80 times throughout the Gospels. He NEVER claimed to be God, and Christ (the Spirit-Being), speaking through the mouth of Jesus (the human), made it a point to let everyone know that.

John 5:37 And the Father Himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Greater than does NOT mean equal to. And God doesn’t have a God or He wouldn’t be God by definition. The MOST High means exactly that: there are NONE higher (or equal to). It really isn’t that difficult to understand. God is the head of Christ, just as Christ is the head of every man and THE Example (John 14:6) that every man must follow to actually come to and KNOW our Creator and heavenly Father and DO His Will (Matt. 6:10). Sound familiar?

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1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

Every other false claim of a triune god, or that Jesus is God, is the result of a total misunderstanding (2 Peter 3:16) of the differences between the spirit (being) and the flesh (human) or due to intentional mistranslations.

John 4:23-24
4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.
4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship [Him] with their spirit (being) and in Truth.

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Jesus referring to Himself over 80 times in the Gospels as the “Son of Man”, something that God plainly told us He could NEVER be (our all-powerful God CANNOT be subject to human limitations).

Matthew (30): 8:20, 9:6, 10:23, 11:19, 12:8, 12:32, 12:40, 13:37, 13:41, 16:13, 16:27, 16:28, 17:9, 17:12, 17:22, 18:11, 19:28, 20:18, 20:28, 24:27, 24:30, 24:37, 24:39, 24:44, 25:13, 25:31, 26:2, 26:24, 26:45, 26:64

Mark (14): 2:10, 2:28, 8:31, 8:38, 9:9, 9:12, 9:31, 10:33, 10:45, 13:26. 13:34, 14:21, 14:41, 14:62,

Luke (26): 5:24, 6:4, 6:22, 7:34, 9:22, 9:26, 9:44, 9:56, 9:58, 11:30, 12:8, 12:10, 12:40, 17:22, 17:24, 17:26, 17:30, 18:8, 18:31, 19:10, 21:27, 21:36, 22:22, 22:48, 22:69, 24:7

John (11): 1:51, 3:13, 3:14, 5:27, 6:27, 6:53, 6:62, 8:19, 12:23, 12:34, 13:31

Numbers 23:19 God [is] not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do [it]? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor reconsider: for He [is] not a man, that He should change His mind.

Job 9:32 For [He is] not a man, as I [am, that] I should answer Him, [and] we should come together in judgment.

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of Mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I [am] God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship [Him] with their spirit (Being) and in Truth.

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References to Christ as the Son OF God (50)

Matthew (9): 4:3, 4:6, 8:29, 14:33, 16:16, 26:63, 27:40, 27:43, 27:54

Mark (5): 1:1, 3:11, 5:7, 14:61, 15:39

Luke (7): 1:32, 1:35, 4:3, 4:9, 4:41, 8:28, 22:70

John (11): 1:34, 1:49, 3:18, 5:25, 6:69, 9:35, 10:36, 11:4, 11:27, 19:7, 20:30

Acts (2): 8:37, 9:20

Books with single references (5): Galatians 2:20, 2 Corinthians 1:19, Romans 1:4, Ephesians 4:13, Revelation 2:18

Hebrews (4): 4:14, 6:6, 7:3, 10:29

1 John (7): 3:8, 4:15, 5:5, 5:10, 5:12, 5:13, 5:20

Also, three of the references to Christ being the literal Son of God refer to Him as the Son of THE Most High or THE Highest. Further, there are at least three more references made by Father to His Anointed (His Christ) as His Son.

Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son OF the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son OF the Highest: and THE LORD God his Father shall give unto him the Throne of David:

Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

And in Psalms, where Father (God, the Most High) refers His Anointed (His Christ) as His Son: Psalm 2:7, 2:12, Dan. 3:25.

Also of interest is the designation of the other angels, both in heaven and here on earth, as “the sons of God”, “children of the Most High” or “sons of the Living God”, etc., including:

Genesis 6:2-7, Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7, Psalm 82:6, Hosea 1:10, John 1:12, Romans 8:14-19, Philippians 2:15, 1 John 3:1-2.

This of course is in perfect agreement with the references to Christ as “the firstborn of every creature” in Colossians 1:15, and “the beginning of the creation of God” in Rev. 3:14. There simply is no other way for Christ to be the literal Son of God (as well as the literal firstborn/first-created).

REFERENCES IN SCRIPTURE TO CHRIST AS “GOD THE SON”: ZERO (0)

REFERENCES IN SCRIPTURE TO “THE DEITY OF CHRIST”: ZERO (0)

The word “of”, by definition, indicates the origin or derivation of something, e.g. a Son OF God.

Common-sense: A Father ALWAYS comes BEFORE the Father’s Son, just as a son ALWAYS is descended FROM the Son’s Father. The Son is the OFFSPRING CREATED BY the Father, by definition**.**

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References in the Gospels to Christ being sent by God (52):-

Matthew (3): 10:40, 15:24, 21:37

Mark (2): 9:37, 12:6

Luke (6): 4:18, 4:26, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16, 20:13

John (41): 3:17, 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5:38, 6:29, 6:38, 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16, 7:28, 7:29, 7:33, 8:7, 8:9, 8:17, 8:20, 8:33, 9:4, 10:36, 11:42, 12:44, 12:45, 12:49, 13:16, 13:20, 14:24, 15:21, 16:5, 17:3, 17:18, 17:21, 17:23, 17:25, 20:21

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In addition to over 50 references to Christ being the Son of God (i.e. the created offspring of God), over 80 references to Jesus (the son of Mary whom Christ incarnated 2000 years ago) being the “Son of Man” (something God Himself said He could NEVER be), over 50 references to Christ being sent by God, and numerous references made by Christ that He is only a Servant of God, we have Christ’s own words and example of worshiping, praying to, glorifying and giving all of the credit to His Father and His God.

In fact, there are almost 200 verses referring to Father in the Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and not one single verse referring to “the trinity” or to “the Father, Son and Holy Spirit” – and that includes Matthew 28:19, where that wording was very obviously ADDED to the original text by the Roman Catholic church, just as they did in 1 John 5:7-8.

IF there was such a thing as a “trinity”, as we find in ancient Babylonian paganism, and this is allegedly some critically important doctrine (even though it’s found nowhere in the Bible), as most “Christians” have been duped into believing, then why didn’t Christ ever talk about it? We have almost 200 verses below which presented a golden opportunity to promote the so-called “trinity” doctrine, and yet Christ ALWAYS gave credit instead to Father, Whom Christ plainly stated (at least 7 times) is Christ’s God.

References made by Jesus in the Gospel accounts to His Father and His God:-

Matthew (42)

5:16; 5:44-45; 5:48; 6:1; 6:4-18; 6:26; 6:32; 7:11; 7:21-24; 10:17-20; 10:28-33; 11:25-27; 12:50; 13:41-43; 15:13-14; 16:15-17; 16:27; 18:10; 18:14; 18:19; 18:35; 19:16-17; 20:23; 23:9; 24:36; 25:34; 26:29; 26:39; 26:42; 26:53-54

Mark (6)

8:38; 10:17-18; 11:25-26; 13:32; 14:36

Luke (17)

1:32; 2:49; 6:36; 9:26; 10:21-22; 11:2; 12:28-32; 18:18-19; 22:29-30; 22:41-42; 23:34; 23:46; 24:49

John (134)

1:14; 1:18; 2:16; 3:34-36; 4:21-24; 5:16-47; 6:27-29; 6:32-40; 6:44-46; 6:57; 6:65; 8:7-10 (8:16-19 KJV); 8:16-23 (8:25-55 KJV); 10:14-38; 11:40-42; 12:26-30; 12:48-50; 13:1-3; 14:1-2; 14:6-7; 14:9-16; 14:20; 14:23-31; 15:1; 15:8-10; 15:15-16; 15:23-27; 16:2-3; 16:10; 16:15-17; 16:23-32; 17; 18:11; 20:17; 20:21

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Speaking of the Trinity, I was branded a heretic and banned from a religious forum early this year for questioning their cockamamie trinity belief, but at least in this day and age I won’t be expecting the Inquisition to come after me..:slight_smile: OH WAIT !!!-

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Did you also get banned from an extreme video site that showed some real grisly stuff.

Quite the spectrum from a Christian forum to a grisly extreme violence site. Do you never consider that it might just be that you’re a wrong un?

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Trinity comes from Egypt Osiris-Isis-Horus Babylon Herod-Inanna-Tammuz Mesopotamian Shamash-Ishtar-Sin

The closest celestial bodies in biblical and also other ancient creation models

Sun

Venus

Moon

Although today if you look at the pop culture and religious symbology , the Sun they are referring to is the “Night Sun” Saturn. Which is why Osiris was changed to Serapis in the Holy Roman empire Osiris+Apis.

Apis is the Bull

So Moloch

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The Bull is Taurus, enshrined in Venus and the Moon.

Which is why the Jesuits are IHS

Ishtar Horus Serapis

Venus-Moon-Saturn

https://x.com/CanPatriot2022/status/1992294028063420845

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Simon Peter said- “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus replied “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven" (Matthew 16:13-17)

Note that Jesus didn’t say to him “Wrong, i’m God himself”..:slight_smile:

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The only delusion here is property of the antitrinitarians.

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Stephen said- “Look, I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” (Acts of the Apostles 7:55-56)

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short answer, John 20:31 and 10:30. If you have to ignore the reason for writing a gospel and gloss over the illogicity that would make the son of a hypothetical god which is one with that god something different in nature than god, you should really consider whether you are missing context.

I will provide some context. Theology already declared by using the 4 levels of Bible interpretation, the moral one in particular, that the whole life of Jesus is meant to be EXAMPLE for mankind. Therefore all instances in which he seems to behave as if he is somehow separated from god you should ask yourself, wait is that a model for human behavior?
The fact that I ask myself that question as a total rookie and you don’t from the depth of your citations is again illogical.

I am also considering irrelevant the concept of trinity itself, because it is a strawman. It is pretty clear to me that the peculiarity of the Christian religion is that its main tenet, God himsel… sorry I mean Iself, bible god’s pronouns are I/I… God Iself sacrifice for mankind, is fundamentally denied by two offshoot religions (what we refer to as jews and Islam) and a host of other people.
This is not normal. What is normal is having your own system of belief and not give AF about others. Jews, and I like to troll them for that, have their Torah that describes the messiah, then comes Jesus and does all the thing and they go, nah not him, then get themselves that most holy talmud. Result, you are splitters. Islam? shahada, the creed, start with a “there is no” referred to guess whom? Christ. Splitters.

So I guess this Christ being God is a serious issue. Let’s break down the possibilities.

A- God creates humanity, sets it free, boys will be boys and there comes the issue of sufference and widespread deserved damnation. God Iself gets down to earth, not as an avatar but in flesh and blood, eats own dogfood, is subjected to the worst of the violence and all the moral dilemmas of man, becomes sacrifice (communion recalls the old testament eating of the sacrificed flesh BTW), so that 1. pays for the debts of humanity assuming RESPONSIBILITY for them 2. let nobody whine about the hardship of human condition because God Iself suffered it all, voluntarily. Now believe it or not (belief is not the issue here, logic is) but it’s a pretty good foundation from the point of view of an eternal entity.

B- God sends an innocent third party to die to show hey you can be saved. Way to go, god you just increased the amount of injustice and a certain lack of faith in yourself.

Here’s the whole of the issue IMHO. peace out.

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Thank-you for your post ddeperfectatheist. Welcome to the community.

There are several flaws in your logic (or lack thereof), which hopefully you won’t mind having pointed out to you.

First, our All-Powerful (Omnipotent), All-Knowing (Omniscient), and Ever-Present (Omnipresent) God CANNOT be subjected to human limitations as He Himself said:

Numbers 23:19 God [is] NOT a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do [it]? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?

Did Christ (The Eldest/Firstborn Son OF God), while here in the body of Jesus (the son of the human Mary) claim to be omnipotent? No.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do NOTHING of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Did Christ, while here in the body of Jesus, claim to be omniscient? Again, no.

Matthew 24:36 But of That Day and Hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father ONLY.

Was Jesus present everywhere at the same time? No. Nowhere in Scripture is this claim made.

Our heavenly Father and God, Who is also Christ’s heavenly Father and God, is NOT and never can be a human. Father brought Christ (Prince Michael) into existence with a THOUGHT, and then taught Christ everything while showing Christ how to do the same (John 5:19-20; Heb. 1:1-6).

We live inside the Thoughts/Mind of Father (God), both spiritually and physically, in the Universe that His Thoughts/Thought-Energy created.

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Secondly, neither of the verses you’ve cited, by themselves or in context, claim that Christ (The Son of God) or Jesus (the Son of the virgin Mary) are/were God.

John 10:30 in context:

John 10:29-30
10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is GREATER THAN ALL; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand.
10:30 I and [my] Father are (at) one.

And as proof that John 10:30 is referring to being AT ONE (of ONE Mind to do God’s Will):

John 17:17-24
17:17 Sanctify them through Thy Truth: Thy Word is Truth.
17:18 As Thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the Truth.
17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe me through their word;
17:21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in Thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.
17:22 And the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are One:
17:23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved me.
17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my Glory, which Thou hast given me: for Thou lovedst me BEFORE the foundation of the world.

It would be totally illogical to assume that being One WITH Father and His Christ physically makes us God, just as it is totally illogical to assume that a Father and a Son are the same individual, or that God is allegedly role-playing as both Father and Son by allegedly dividing Himself into three equal parts that aren’t equal.

And with regard to John 20:31, it again only claims that Christ is the Son OF God. The word “of” means “to come from”; it does NOT mean “the same thing as”. The son of Mary is Mary’s son, and very clearly NOT Mary.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son OF God; and that believing ye might have Life through his name.

The name “Jesus” is also a TITLE, which means “YHWH Saves”, often expressed simply as “Saviour”.

Only by living (by living…believing) by God’s Word (both written and the flesh and blood example provided by Jesus) can one truly get to know Father (The ONE and ONLY True God) AND Christ, the Saviour, whom Father sent.

John 17:3 And THIS is Life Eternal, that they might KNOW Thee the ONLY True God, and Christ the Saviour, whom Thou hast sent.

As long as someone mistakenly believes that God has allegedly divided Himself into 3 equal but not really equal parts, so He can pretend to be both Father and Son and pray to Himself, etc., they will NEVER get to know Father (God) nor His Eldest/Firstborn Son, whom Father anointed and sent to be our King, Teacher, High-Priest/Mediator and Example.

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Another long, incoherent exercise in an appeal to emotion and an argument from outrage. Plus an appeal to ridicule. Much of what I’ve come to expect from faitheism.

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“…That is normal is having your own system of belief and not give AF about others”

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Yes, we all have to “Work out your own salvation..” (Philip 2:12 KJV)

And the trick is to stay Jesus-focussed and not get side-tracked by deep longwinded theology-Paul said - “I’m worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ” (2 Cor 11:3)

Jesus is easy enough to understand- “And the common people heard him gladly” (Mark 12:37)

He’s not a “religion”, he’s JESUS and he simply wants chums..:)-

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Hello, you don’t need to repeat your points, rather you have got to make them logically fit with the simple concept that the son of a dog is a dog, so the one defined as son of god and son of man is both (both natures do not ‘coexist’, as some theologians say, nor overlap, as they pertain to different domains). Also I notice neither of the replies addressed the illogicity of ‘sacrificing’ a third party to save humankind.

“omnipotent” and “cannot” referred to the same subject is textbook illogical. The concept of limit in the context of the supernatural is undefined, and anyway I don’t hear any pro trinity claiming that god limits self to human nature only or asserting God is a man. Christ is more than a man “I am the way, the Truth and the Life” seems pretty bold a statement from a mere man, or even a jewish flavoured superhero messiah.

to be continued addressing details when time permits.

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**ddeperfectatheist quote: ”**…the illogicity of ‘sacrificing’ a third party to save humankind”

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Jesus has saved a huge chunk of humankind, not bad for a kid from a carpenters shop in a bunch of mud huts called Nazareth..:slight_smile:

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what happens in the domain of the supernatural is surely not physical. But it is also inconceivable from the POV of human beings so I make no whatsoever assumption about our status in god.

when you dream, and you also dream in first person, have you ‘divided’ yourself? is your dreamt self, a character in the dream, a creation or rather a representation of you? would it be pretending, to behave as the other characters or is it simply dreaming?you seem not to appreciate the gulf between creature and creator by using those terms.

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the key being ‘third party’, nobody among perfect atheists disputes the ability of a god to save, only the difference between sacrificing self vs. somebody else.